JW Critic:
“ but the word does mean "origin" in the Greek. But it is the Son of man ascending past the beginning and ending of creation into a timeless God. How do you explain the present tense of vs 15 "he IS (present indicative tense) before all things. He's before all things NOW. Therefore, he's in God, past the beginning and end, therefore all things were created through him. And because God said he CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE, either God simultaneously existed in the Son of man or there is a contradiction. If the same God existed as both, there is none. ALONE means "not through another person" created or not!”
Reply,
“How do you explain the present tense of vs 15 "he IS (present indicative tense) before all things.”
I think you mean Col 1:17 and not v15!
I keep on explaining this to Trinitarians, but they pay no attention!
No translation I am aware of with the exception of the AB paraphrase translation, which has “originator”, has “origin”; it is not in any extant Greek manuscript and not implied, except by theology, and I see you do not quote the translation that may have “origin”, so, your comment can be dismissed until you cite your translation source!
Let us look at the surrounding context. From two translations, the Trinitarian ESV and the JW NWT, as it will answer your question:
“How do you explain the present tense of vs 15 "he IS (present indicative tense) before all things.”
Col 1:15-17
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” ESV
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist” NWT
Looking at the ESV and other Trinitarian translations, if we take it literally, are we to understand that Jesus “is before all things", is Jesus before his own Father? If so, then, we must include the Father in that understanding or we need to explain what the original Greek intended to convey!
Clearly, the expression “he is before all things” cannot include the Father, so there must be a way, as far as English is concerned to distinguish the Father and Son from the “all things”!
Greek has a way of implying “other” (NWT)!
Notice, “all things were created through him and for him. “ ESV
Since the “all things” were “created through him and for him”, he cannot be God!
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through…” ESV
Logically, since the “all things” were “created through him”, Jesus must have pre-existed that which he was instrumental in bringing into existence, thus, God’s son stands outside of thus, apart and in relation to that which he was instrumental in bringing into existence!
However, since Col 1:15 is in the Partitive Genitive, God’s son, though he son stands outside of, thus, apart and in relation to that which he was instrumental in bringing into existence, he is still (because of the Partitive Genitive) part of the overall creation, he being the only one directly created by his God and Father, Jehovah, “all [other] things” (NWT) of creation were brought into existence “by” (means of) the Son.
What the Partitive Genitive shows is that the son is of class, category “creation”, just as he is of class, category “firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18; Rev 1:5).
Lastly:
“And because God said he CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE, either God simultaneously existed in the Son of man or there is a contradiction. If the same God existed as both, there is none. ALONE means "not through another person" created or not!”
“And because God said he CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE…”
Here, you seem to be alluding to the book of Isaiah!
The problem with Trinitarians (and I was one for over 20 years) is that, they mix up and confuse contexts and what you said above is a typical example!
The Isaiah context from which you seem to draw on!
In Isaiah’s day, the nation of Israel with its kings, priests and false prophets, etc., had turned apostate and turned away from the pure worship Jehovah and turned to worshipping the Baals! To these false gods, the apostate Israelites attributed success in war, crops, fertility, etc.
To these apostates, these gods were real and were responsible for the “all things” created, but the point Jehovah makes through his prophet Isaiah (which Trinitarian ignore or dismiss or simply just do not get it) is that there was no God with him!
Isa 44:24?
New Living Translation:
“This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer and Creator: “I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens. Who was with me when I made the earth?”
English Standard Version:
“Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself”
This is the point that God was making through his prophet! In other words, which god was with Jehovah God, when he “alone stretched out the heavens” and “who spread out the earth”, yes, which of the Baals was with him?
This is what Trinitarians miss entirely, the proper context, especially when they come back with: “And because God said he CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE”!
“either God simultaneously existed in the Son of man or there is a contradiction. If the same God existed as both, there is none. ALONE means "not through another person" created or not!”
No! Your theology is blinding you to the proper context, of which you are totally unaware of, otherwise, you would not have come back with the above!
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